This is Keith and this is Ben, and this is Main Street Lutherans. Today we get to talk with another podcast. We're going to talk with the Understanding Church Podcast out of the Pittsburgh area. One of our. Well, two of our Lutheran churches now collaborate on this. On this podcast, we'll talk with Pastor Wendy Ferrone and Pastor Dan Smale. But before we do that, let's talk about congregational media. You know, we've mentioned on the podcast that St. Mat's has a radio broadcast that goes out and you've got a contract and certain things, I think. What the Good Friday service goes out on the radio. So that'll be coming up.

Yes. Sunday, Sunday mornings, 11 o', clock, we're on the radio. Every week, our good Friday noon service is broadcast. Our Thanksgiving Day service is broadcast. Christmas Eve, the 10:30pm service is broadcast. I think that might be the extent of the contract. Yeah.

Yeah.

And actually it's time for me to the. The signing of the contract always involves a trip to Starbucks, which is nice. I, I stopped by and meet with the station manager and he brings the contract and we resign it. And. Yeah, it's. We've. The contract is somewhere around 90 years old. Wow. This station is. Is currently owned by the local baseball team, the York Revolution. WOIK was the AM station. They also added an FM station, 98.9 FM. Sports radio. 98. 9, they call it.

This is not a sponsorship.

No, no, it is not. Yeah. It's funny, their website, I can't corroborate this, but their website says that this is the longest continuous or oldest continuous current Protestant radio broadcast in the United States.

Wow.

As far as they know, it's been happening. Yeah. It started in 19. Yeah. 1935, I think.

As we know, York likes to collect firsts.

Yeah. Yeah. And it may not have been the first. It's just, it's just now going.

Going.

Probably others prior to that, but yeah, this one, it's just. For whatever reason. Yep. They did it as a surprise to Joe Baker, who was the pastor at the time. In fact, they were trying. I think, I think he may have known that the, that it was coming, that they were adding this radio broadcast. What they, what he didn't know was that they were installing the equipment to do the broadcast in the basement of the parsonage where he lived next door to the church. And they were doing this like on an afternoon, like trying to surprise him that the, you know, the first time that he stepped into the pulpit on a Sunday morning and somebody was going to say and now we're broadcasting live from St. Matthew Lutheran Church in New York. Yeah. Wow. So what's. What's changed over the years is when the radio station was purchased by the Revs, shortly after that, they made it so that, you know, first off, you could listen to their broadcast through the website. Through their website. And then. Then they added the FM station, and then they added an app, and so you can listen to the. This was a bigger deal a little while ago. Now, with the Internet being what it is and website, you can listen anywhere.

But.

But when we started getting reports from members of St. Matthew who said, hey, I was on vacation in Nova Scotia and listened to the service on Sunday, you know, now with the live streams, you can listen to any of the services on YouTube. Right. You can go back or on Facebook. You can go back anytime after the fact. But until. Until those. You can only listen to it live. But the fact that you could listen to it live from anywhere in the world if you compensated for the time difference, that was pretty cool. That was really a big deal. And that was only in the last 10, 15 years.

So right now is radio. I mean, are there people that are not part of the congregation that I don't even know how you would know who listens? Radio is very much throwing it out and not getting anything back.

That's entirely true, because the radio station does not do, like, Nielsen ratings or anything comparable, so they can't tell us how many people listen. And, you know, of course, AM&FM have very different audiences and different reaches. Yeah, ranges. You know, literally and metaphorically. But, you know, now that they have both. Yeah, I know. I know anecdotally from people. You know, I used to get stories from other pastor colleagues who would say, hey, after. After my service is done on Sunday, as I'm driving home, I always sit here and listen to St. Matthew, or, you know, we do get comments from people in the community. You know, maybe they stop in for the Christmas dinner or for the, you know, like, our food pantry or something, and they'll say, yeah, I listen to you guys on Sundays. You know, like I said, now, with the live stream probably being even more prevalently used than the radio station at this point. I don't know. And yet.

Yeah, and yet, if somebody listens to the baseball game on the radio, you know, which is tradition, the radio will stay on that channel the next time they get in their car.

Right.

You know, and so that's very different from YouTube, where you have to actually search it every time.

Correct?

Yeah.

You will get incidental listens to this. And you know, at one point people used to say it's kind of crummy that, you know, WOK used to be the local talk radio station and then it became the local sports station and then it got bought out by the. By the Revs, which now, you know, it's. It's a syndicated station. So they were playing like national sports sometimes and local sports sometimes and us. Yeah. So it's. It's just kind of funny.

Yeah.

Like I said, the contract has been around for a long time and nobody seems to have any plans to do away with it.

Sure.

I. I've known of churches, one, one particularly in Delaware, Ohio, that. That has the public access. Like it sounded like they actually like plugged in a. A wire and suddenly they were on air on, on their community access cables channel.

Right.

That there wasn't like. It was literally just plugging something in and they took over the. The channel like some sort of, you know, TV pirate or something, but that sort of thing. So there are probably still some of those out there.

I would think so. Yeah. Yeah.

I know a church that I've supplied at. They had a pastor they interviewed who part of his call offer, he wanted to be that he could build or the church would build for him a radio tower in the open space behind the church so that he could have his own private radio station like he did at the church he was serving up north in Michigan, either either in Northern Michigan or the U.P. so he could broadcast messages. So he'd have his own private station that was FCC registered and stuff, which they said no to. And so he never did start there. But Detroit has sort of a history of pastors taking over radio stations.

Okay.

Father Conklin back in the 1930s had a very pro Nazi agenda. He was a Catholic priest and was very much in favor of Hitler and. And had a radio program that advertised that.

Right.

And so. So I think people in Metro Detrid, anyway, are a little more questionable of that sort of thing because it wasn't a service, it was. It was talk radio that he was doing okay and doing his advocacy there. So. So yeah, yeah.

You know, when we were recording with the Understanding Lutheran or Understanding Church folks. Sorry, you made a comment at one point. I'm not sure if it was while we were recording with them or if it was in the conversation we had before that where you said, you know, there's the loudest microphone are the ones that are heard. And there was a time when, you know, radio, television, whether it was Public access or not. Yeah, that was. You're like, that's who you could hear. That was it.

Yeah.

Now we're literally podcasting, which anybody can do. And you know, so whether it's a podcasting platform or YouTube or whatever, you know, now suddenly like, yeah, loudest microphone gets heard, but literally now everybody can have a microphone.

Yeah.

Now we're just all slaves to the algorithms of, you know, who gets promoted and who gets.

Or. Or what our friends, what our friends are listening to. And, and so, so like Understanding Church when. So Wendy Ferrone, Pastor Wendy Ferrone is in my class at United Lutheran Seminary. She's auditing this class just to stay in the, in the, in the, the school space. But so, so we, we ran into each other as, as podcast people that way. And, and so I started listening to their podcast and I think it's really interesting. It's very different from what we do. It has a focus on their context and it's expanded a little bit. And then we'll talk about that here in our chat. And so it's really interesting. But I think one of the big takeaways from this is that churches can do this.

Right.

And that's what. As you listen to this, think about what might you do for your congregation or for your community that might make an impact. And would this help if you do. If you want to try it, feel free to contact us.

I'll.

I'll help you get started with some stuff.

By us, he means him. Yeah. Ben's the one with all the technical, know how of how this works.

But. But it's not that hard.

I can do it. Yeah.

And here's our chat with the Understanding Church podcast. So with us today, we have the folks from the Understanding Church podcast, Pastor Wendy Ferrone and Pastor Dan Smale. So good to have you here. I've been listening to your podcast. It's excellent. I love the content there. So before we get into the podcast itself, tell us about yourselves.

Go ahead, Wendy.

Thank you. I'm Wendy Ferrone and I'm a pastor at Faith Lutheran Church in White Oak, Pennsylvania, near Pittsburgh.

And I'm Pastor Dan Smale, one of the pastors here at Bethlehem Lutheran Church in Glenshaw, Pennsylvania, which is essentially the northern suburbs of Pittsburgh.

Awesome. And so you've got this podcast, Understanding Church, I think. Did it have a prior name?

It did, it did. Yeah, it did. It was called. Well, I was a congregant member at Bethlehem at Pastor Dan's church for, I guess, seven years or so before I received a call into ministry, so I. It was called Bethlehem Back Chat. And so we transferred that when I moved out of Bethlehem to get my own church to something that didn't seem like it fit one church or the other. So Understanding Church, we went through all kinds of different name ideas and most of them were taken, but for some odd reason, Understanding Church was not. So we grabbed that one and I

think it was probably a more appropriate name in terms of where we had evolved.

That's right.

Content.

Speaking of evolving, let's back up a little bit. What was the. What was your original purpose in starting the podcast?

Well, the original purpose was just to address congregational questions. So we would be moving through the church year, embracing liturgy, and folks would say, why do we have four lessons every week? Where do these lessons come from? You know, just. I mean, really. And. Which is a tremendous question. The fact that that kind of curiosity was present within the pews was a gift to us. And we thought there was an opportunity to address some of those questions and deepen folks experience as they invested in the life of the church.

And I'll tell you that this podcast was kind of the catalyst, along with the guidance and care from Pastor Dan, that made me aware of seminary might be in my future. Because I had a million questions and I've been a lifelong Lutheran and I would think that someone as a lifelong Lutheran should have this all figured out. Right. I didn't. And I didn't want to appear dumb, so I often just didn't ask for question. So I thought, what a great idea. I don't even know how long I'd been at the church. And I approached Pastor Dan. We were having coffee at Starbucks and I said, how would you feel about doing a podcast? I had no idea how to do a podcast. I didn't have the equipment, I didn't have. I don't know, I just wanted my questions answered without looking dumb. So I asked questions you'll see in the earlier episodes. I'll say things like, what's that? All that stuff you put over the chalice on the altar? And what do you do all of that for? And why do you sing the holy, holy, holy? What's that mean? And so this gave me a way to answer the questions I had, figuring other people would have the exact same questions.

Yeah, that's really great.

And to be fair, it doesn't hurt for clergy types to dig back into the texts and do some research and clarify their thinking. Yeah, absolutely.

Well, and.

And to remind ourselves exactly why we do Some of these things, too. So that. So that that background, even in some small, subtle way, comes out in how they're applied. You know, we've got a. We're using a Lenten series right now from Barnge's publishing, Barnge's worship called all in for. For Lent. And one of the preaching examples that they've. Well, every. Every week they've got a. A tie in to a liturgical practice act or some part of the service. And a couple of weeks ago, it was the Eucharistic prayer, and it described, you know, why does the Eucharistic prayer always start with, you know, the great Thanksgiving portion of it? Why does it begin with, you know, the backstory of creation and Israel and leading into Jesus and then end up with. With the Holy Spirit and the church today? Like, why does that pattern exist? And then they. And they said, you know, mention this in the sermon and then bring it out when you actually recite the prayer that day. You know, try to just emphasize the fact that this is a really amazing story. Sorry. That's just an example of how, you know, I think you're absolutely right to be pursuing those questions for us as clergy, because people. People want to know them well.

And I think it's just. It's so easy for all of us to go through the motions if you're invested in that rhythm every week. It's so tempting to just assume we have it on lockdown. And there's a comfort in that predictability in the routine. But. But almost everything we say and do, and this is not an exaggeration, it's dripping with meaning. Just dripping with meaning that's already present there. And then there's even more meaning that we're being drawn into. And so a part of what we need to do more systematically is just set the table, just like you described. Just set the table and invite folks to partake of all of the beauty and the richness of the tradition that we're invested in.

So when and why then did the podcast kind of shift directions? I mean, we heard Wendy say about, you know, moving into a different congregational setting, and so you need something that was a broader title. But did your. Did your topics also shift at some point?

Yeah, I think.

I think so. I mean, that's really what I was driving at with the Understanding Church name. I mean, there's two things going on there. One is sort of the cognitive understanding, and the second is the identity of. No, we really are a church where this kind of deliberation and curiosity is. Is welcome. So that was helpful to. To sort of rebrand a little bit and deepen our own identity, Sense of identity. But the. The questions over time began to shift. And, Wendy, feel free to jump in and correct at any time, but really, we. We had feedback from the folks that were listening, and I'm sure you've. Both of you have realized this, too. There was. There was a sense of. There were some questions about the local experience, the provincial experience, but then questions about the larger church. Who are we as a body of Christ, as a denomination? What's distinctive about our experience? Does that still matter? And those. Those larger, broader questions started to reshape our intention in terms of production and the guests that we were inviting and those kinds of things.

And Pastor Dan has allowed me the grace of being able to just. The ideas just pop in my head. And I send him a note and say, hey, we're going to talk about. And he goes, sounds good to me. And I. I used to. We've done this, I think, seven, eight years we've done this, and we do it. We offer these monthly. But we started out there. Our very first one was 2018, and we started out with the goal of prayer and topics that just popped up, like, why do we have saints? Isn't that a. Isn't that not a Lutheran thing? And understanding, like, who we are as a body, what is sin? Do we believe in hell? Where's heaven? What is. I think, one of the ones that really touches base with what we've been in conversation about, and that is kind of an annotation of the worship service. And that was the only podcast that took us two episodes because we got into it. It was great. It was great. But the topics often surround those things that pop into my head or. Or in my congregation. Somebody will ask me something and I'll think, there you go.

That.

That's when we need to talk about. And when we transferred to Understanding Church, Pastor Dan had the great idea of bringing in more guest speakers, people from local Lutheran services that are available. We've had many folks like the bishop, our past bishop, Kurt Kassaro, and our new bishop, Melissa Stoller, have both come onto our podcast. And I believe in our synod, there used to be another podcast, but I think we're it now. Yeah.

And is your target audience still primarily, you know, members of your own congregation or local Lutheran church members, or do you feel like you actually speak to a wider audience?

I think originally the target definitely was the congregation. And then we thought, well, we'll expand this to two Congregations. But, I mean, based upon the emails and the feedback that we're. We're getting, in some ways, it's. It's sobering to realize if you put something out there, folks are gonna. Folks are gonna find. And I'm sure you've had this experience too, but. But folks are going to find it, and you're going to be surprised by how that kind of takes on a life of its own and who that gets shared with. And so in terms of the audience, it definitely has. Is. Is expanded, for sure. But I think at the heart of what we're doing, in the back of our minds, we're still focused. As I'm recording, I'm still thinking about the folks within our contexts that are going to receive this and. And what's important to them.

Yeah, sure. And as far as ecumenicalism, are other congregations in your area? I know there are a lot of Presbyterians in the Pittsburgh area, for sure. How do you consider if. Has anybody, you know, from a different denomination sort of raised their hand and said, hey, I'm listening to this too? Anything like that?

Yeah, I mean, Wendy went to the local. She did her seminary experience. She was invested in local Presbyterian Seminary. So I'm sure, Wendy, you had some interaction with that denominational expression.

Well, sure. And I. They. I'm glad that we have Understanding Church as the title now because it doesn't seem like it's Lutheran that turns people away or says, well, I'm not Lutheran, so that doesn't apply to me.

Right.

It's wor. It's more liturgical. There are the creeds and some confession that we do talk about in there. But. But oftentimes I'll be in conversation in a class or speaking to folks, and I'll say, we have a podcast on that you might want to listen to. And so. But I don't necessarily track where they come from. Yeah, I just look at a number, and if it's exceeding my expectations, I'll send it to Pastor Dan and say, well, look it, we've got a lot of attention to that.

Yeah.

Well, and full disclosure, Wendy is auditing a class that I'm taking at United Lutheran Seminary. And so that's how we met. It actually came up that way. Wendy said, hey, I've got a podcast, and I forget what it was in relationship to. And then it turns out one of our classmates is a listener. She'd actually sent me a message, I think, earlier that day in that class. Hey, I was just listening to you and Keith. And so she chimed in, oh, Ben has one too. And so it's pretty funny that way. I wonder how many of our classmates have podcasts and they just don't want to talk about it.

We shouted from the rooftops.

God bless them if they do. Yeah,

it's strange how it has evolved because it started out truly very basic and I watched YouTube to figure out how to do it and we tried it off a laptop. We tried it off like totally lacking in technology knowledge around that type of thing. And after we have, I believe 75 episodes at this point, it has evolved to where I have an H6 recorder, two nice microphones. I do audacity to do the editing and I upload it and to Buzzsprout. Bingo, there it is. And it goes everywhere. What that has allowed us to do is to reach beyond our own church doors and to make it so simple that it doesn't become a part time job. For me it takes, it takes maybe for those who are interested in creating a podcast, it takes a little, a little knowledge and a whole bunch of screw ups. And then you think, okay, I think I've got this. And usually about four hours is what it takes me to get it done.

Yeah, we can talk about how congregations might want to do this sort of thing. I think it's a really interesting tool that way. I noticed that. So you started before the pandemic if you started in 2018. Yes. A lot of the reasons podcasts sort of soared in 2020 and 2021 was the people couldn't get out.

That's right.

And so they found a way of distributing this stuff a little, a little broad. It's also a very inexpensive way to do it. Buzzsprout. It can be free. And so it's a really interesting way. And we can. I'm happy to share details on that. I going to guess that you are too, Wendy.

Yes, absolutely.

As far as advice on how to do these things so.

Exactly right.

But I think the key, and I think you talked about this a little bit is just to get started.

Yes.

That your first episodes. Well, people go back to listen to our first few episodes quite often and you sort of get a little unnerved by that technology.

You have a technology background, so you can imagine I was just bumping in the dark, you know. And truly YouTube is the ticket or Ben is the ticket. I just was there. I got to tell you a couple stories. We banged our knees a little bit. My favorite one was when I hit the wrong button on the second time we re record it because I didn't hit the right button the first time. So the third time, I think it was on Noah. And finally, Pastor Dan is the patience of Job. No kidding.

No, I think it was poignant that the recording of that podcast stretched over 40 days.

You knew it was over when the dove came in.

We saw the dove outside the window,

or in my case, from the story we were talking about earlier. The giant turkey flying through the air in Monroeville. Yeah.

And we. So I had Bishop Kurt Khusraw, who's a dear friend, and he did. We did this beautiful congregation. Beautiful. This beautiful recording. And I looked down and went white. I never hit record. Because we were so. I was so immersed in the conversation. I never hit record.

Yeah.

He said, well, you know, it's probably always better the second time anyway. And I. I thought, how am I holding back to tears? It's because he was so. So kind and so graceful. And Pastor Dan, he could poke fun at me every now and then and say, don't throw the script away, because we don't know if it's recorded or not. But we're getting better. We're getting better at it.

And I think you just anticipate some of that stuff as you go, and. And if it's a part of the fun, you'll meet with success. And I think that. That the warmth of the rapport that you develop over the years is a gift to the folks that are. That are listening.

Yeah, absolutely.

So if you have a couple of extra runs. Nothing wrong with that. Yeah.

Keith and I, you know, some of the behind the scenes for us is we. We talk nearly every Monday, whether we record or not. And we've been. We've been friends for a long, long time. And it wasn't really until we started doing this that we got to actually see each other and, you know, share about our families and stuff, since that clergy, in particular, have a tendency to sort of move long distances, you know, away from friends and family. You have these connections you've built up. And so this. This technology makes it real easy to do that, but the podcast becomes an excuse in. In some ways. And so, yeah, Ben and I, you

know, we were really close in college. He's actually the godfather of my oldest child, who's now 26 years old, and. And getting ready to have a child of their own. But, you know, he and I didn't really been in a lot of context with each other for a long time, except, you know, the occasional phone call or email exchange. And so, yeah, the podcast has become a way of us, you know, really reconnecting our own friendship as well.

Yeah.

I'm curious, how. How did things shift for you or maybe they didn't during the pandemic in terms of, you know, your process, your focus. Yeah.

I try to block that time out as much as I can, so I.

I don't remember a thing.

No, no, just kidding. We. We were pretty intentional about any guidelines that the congregation council set. We. We were sure to follow. So we did the whole. We. I think we even masked Wendy and social distancing and. And she would. Wendy was gracious enough to sort of come in and get everything set up, and then I would sneak in and we would keep our distance and. And get a recording done.

Okay. So apart from some logistical changes, it really didn't break your stride at all to just put it up.

It was our saving grace because it was our excuse to get out and to be with a human person. Because I live alone. It's really. It's a little lonely. Right. So when you get an opportunity to be in a situation where you can learn and laugh and be present with other people, people safely, it was. It was really a gift during that time. Yeah.

Yeah, we had that experience in St. Matthew because we. We do have a radio broadcast on Sunday mornings. And when we were not worshiping live in person for, oh, the better part of a year, I think we. We pre recorded those services. And so, you know, there was no congregation present, but myself and the music director and our organist and my. My colleague, my pastor colleague and. And the. The two guys that took care of the technical stuff. We all got to see each other once a week for a couple of hours. And it. It really was meaningful in that. In that time. So.

Thanks. Sure.

So we have. We have recorded in some really weird places. We were on mission trip and we did a recording from mission trip. We were in Appalachia, and my favorite one, we went to north park, which was just a big expanse park near us. Yeah. And the person that. We were planning on having a sound person with us, and that didn't work. So we opened the hatch of Pastor Dan's Subaru, stuck my laptop in there and put two lawn chairs on and leaned into the hatch. Record our podcast. You can hear people talking in the background. It was. It was really sweet.

Yeah. We had a program called FIT Church that. That our congregation was invested in. And bi weekly through the summer, folks would gather at the local park, and some would sit around and chat, some would take a nice walk, some would play tennis, and then at the end, we had a nice time of discussion, devotion, study. So we were trying to capture the energy of that moment. I don't know how well we did or we didn't, but we again gave it a whirl.

We did. It was fun.

Yeah. Yeah. The thing about podcasting is that, you know, when you're talking about just one or two people involved in it and then the one or two guests that you might have at any given moment, it really does become like a bit of a playground to just experiment and just say, what can we do with this?

Right, yeah, absolutely.

So I'm going to take a guess that having stepped out into doing the podcast, doing the audio recording, editing sound, that thing made it easier to trust yourself to go that step to the full broadcast. When Covid hit that, having taken that step unknowingly and knowing that you could do it made it a lot easier to take that next step.

Absolutely. And ignorance is bliss. I didn't know. So I just went forward and tried a bunch of stuff and whatever worked, that's what we stuck with. We used to have a sound board and whatever you do and the big mics and all that stuff. And really simplicity has worked really well for us. That the little H6 recorder is just incredible sound wise and the right microphones are important, but there's confidence now in that I know what I'm doing sorta, because it gets glitchy and Audacity won't upload the tracks and I start to panic. Well, I won't panic anymore. I'll just call you Ben. But you've got a friend, buddy.

So that's a zoom. Just. Just so I'm. I'm keeping notes here. That's a zoom. H6.

It is.

Yeah. I can't figure out. I think I've got a P4 or something like that, and I can't figure it out, so. Oh, well, I may not be any help. I'll have to call you.

Yeah, no kidding. But it. And then like I said, the. You just build confidence and the folks around you give you the. The wiggle room to make mistakes and, and to try it again. And it really has been an ongoing, like. I'm amazed that we have gotten this long, Pastor Dan, you agree?

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Because I didn't. I mean, when we started, I didn't know what to expect and I didn't anticipate the, the response that we got, but it's been a blessing. I mean, and because just back to the conversation piece. The folks who Are who are waiting for episodes to come to land. They feel like we get the sense that they feel like they're part of the conversation. And I think that that's. That's awesome. I mean,

yeah, I've gotten feedback like, I'm so glad you did that podcast. I always wondered about that. And I think that's what we're reaching for, is those questions that I always had as a person who's been in the pews for years and didn't get. Didn't understand it. I wanted to ask those questions that everybody's kind of embarrassed or kind of unsure or apprehensive to ask and to get those answers. And people will call and say, ask them about this.

Yeah. The questions that they assume they're already supposed to know the answer to and don't. Yeah.

When. When our answers that we have are developed over thousands of years now. Right.

Yeah.

You know, and our core things going back to, you know, the beginning of time for us, that people don't just figure this out on their own. That's why we have community, is that we develop on this. And that's part of why it's important to have a denomination, I feel, is that we have that structure to be able to share that going forward.

I don't know how people. And I do always share this with my folks, that I don't know how you are expected to understand it. When I went to seminary, and I still am not sure I learn every day.

Well, I think that that's important to note, too. I mean, the. The style of the podcast we do historically, not as much now, but was, you know, Wendy posing the question. But this was not like a late night television program. It was an offhanded interview. She was kidding around about the scripts earlier, but there would be a produced script that we would spend time with. But then. And I don't think we still have any of these laying around. But in the margins of those scripts were another two pages of, like, handwritten notes and that were all about. Just like you're talking about, Ben, sort of retrieving the denominational identity and reaching back into the shared history and trying our best to faithfully articulate the witness that's been offered to us in the past so that we could have a legitimate voice in the space. It wasn't just spur of the moment, but here's what I think about that. Not that that doesn't happen sometimes, but the bulk of it was an attempt to be thoughtful about the questions. Yeah.

Yeah. And now. And this is how if someone is interested in a podcast, you start out with something more scripted. I could hear Pastor Dan in my ear when I was writing it, and I would write and I'd say, well, you know what he might say. And then sometimes I would just write a little paragraph, say, I don't know, clip clueless. You fill this in. But now we're at a point where I just write lead questions that I probably will come up with. And then we just talk back and forth. It's very. The foundation is there and it's built and we just talk back and forth and poke fun and laugh and do goofy stuff. And sometimes we just say, I'll edit that out.

Then a part of what we do is empower. Now that we do have more guests, we try to empower the guests to feel comfortable and lift up their voice.

Yes.

In a way that's constructive for all of us.

Yeah, yeah.

Let's say I'm at a congregation. We are trying to figure out how to reach out to folks. This idea of a podcast sounds interesting. What do you think the best way to get started would be to produce a podcast? Maybe for my local, you know, my congregation, or maybe for some surrounding churches, Maybe if we've got a three point parish to share among all those three. What do you think?

Yeah, first things first, before you buy any equipment or, or set up a script or a schedule, I would spend some time at coffee hour during a Sunday school session, whatever the case may be, where you have some contact with your, with your folks to ascertain whether or not people are dialed into the podcast deal. Because I think that that's, that's important. We, we knew going in that we had a fair number of people within the congregation that already had Apple podcasts up on their phone and were, you know, subscribing to their favorites. So it was an easy point.

They would just add it.

Correct.

It was an easy point of connection. And folks were in the habit of driving to work and listening to those kinds of things. And that was a huge boon for us because we, we were able to build momentum early and then they can

share how to subscribe to with other folks.

So that's the next thing you have to have, patience. The folks that are less tech savvy, and I'm not even going to say this is necessarily connected to age, but the folks that are less tech savvy, just be prepared for them to come into your office with their iPad or their phone, you know, saying this, tell me how that that goes, which is a gift Obviously. But honestly, all kidding. I said that's the first thing. If you're in a context where folks just are not plugged into that form of media, it might behoove you to invest in. In something that's more accessible. But if you've got some of that energy and you've got folks that are interested, that's a great place. That's a great place to start. And then the second question is, you know, what are you interested in? What. What do you really want to hear about? Is it. Is it liturgy? Is it theology? Is it biblical studies? And once you get a sense of where folks interests actually lie, then your investment can be reflective of that. Then meet the need.

And the. Also the accessibility issue is if they don't have the right phone or don't really deal with that phone issue. We also, I also upload it to our websites, mine, mine and his. And it's also the link to the website upload is on our synod weekly announcements and on the weekly announcements we send to each of our congregations. So all they have to do is click a link.

Yeah.

They can listen through the website without going to a streaming app.

Yep, that's correct. Yeah. And I'll tell you, it's one of those things where if. If you're feeling pulled toward doing something this way and it's way out of the loop for you, this is really odd to you. Like, I don't know, it sounds like fun, but I don't know a thing. That's a good time to just take the leap and just learn. It might be for you, it might not be for you, but try it. Give it a whirl. Yeah, give it a whirl. It's something new to learn. And there are thousands, as Ben, you were mentioning during the pandemic where thousands of podcasts were put out there.

And those are just mine.

Yeah, they're just yours. Our goal was never to compete in that market.

Yeah.

It was to inform our congregations and the listeners who are interested in that topic. So we don't really pay much attention to numbers. I mean, if they were in the zeros or something, I think, well, that's a dud. I think we're done. But it has never been that way. People are saying, when's your next episode coming out? And that is reinforcement that we're on the right track still.

And I think from our experience, we look at the numbers mostly to see what people are sharing, because we have specific episodes like our with Dr. Grandquist about the history of the Lutheran Church. Starting at the Reformation up to today. And those are very popular episodes because we know that it's something that people don't get a lot of. You have to take a couple courses at seminary to get that full spectrum.

That's right.

And so it's not something that you can just pick up one book, even, and get that. And so having somebody that can share that is really great. And we have some episodes that we think are important to have because of who we're reaching to. They may not get listened to very often. We have a couple episodes that get a lot of comments. People want to yell at us about these things. Um, but it's because it's a topic that. That our. Our church gets a lot of criticism over.

And.

And so it just naturally happens. But. So. So we pay attention to that. But it. It shouldn't be the. The main driver, right?

That's right.

You know, it's. It's, you know, going after the one. If. If it serves a need anywhere, it's. It's worth doing.

So I. I was the one that. I started it, and I was the lost sheep. So you can do it, too.

That's right.

Well, Ben, Keith, I'm interested. As you made your way through your trajectory of episodes and you were discerning what it was that you wanted to talk about, were there moments that were surprising to you? For instance, were there aspects of that Lutheran Church history piece that were really, really compelling to the listeners that you heard back about? Did you have some surprises along the way? I mean, I know there are topics that folks are really, really passionate about and we're bound to hear about, but there are other aspects of what you were pulling together in the podcast that were really engaging to folks.

I think the number one surprise for me is that people were willing to talk to us about stuff where. Well, you know how it is. You go through the seasons, and there are times when people just aren't available.

Right.

And.

And you go through that for two or three months, and then all of a sudden everybody's available again. And. And so. And then you find out that, you know, this person. I. I never thought I heard them on a big, big podcast. So I reached out to them and they actually made time for us. We've had a couple of those that, like, there's no way we would. We'd get to talk to this guy. He's, you know, on a book tour and all this, but. But we get to. To talk to them or even Imran,

you know, this guy's the vice President of the elca, and he's been on our show three times.

Wow. Get the word out. That's how you do it.

Yeah. Willing to take the time. One of the things that surprises me is, you know, how many times people have listened to and commented on the. The first couple of episodes that were just about me and Ben and like what we were trying to do with this podcast and then what our own experience and background was, you know, kind of how we came to even want to do this. And those are some of the episodes you get listened to a lot. I don't know why.

And one more quick question. As we were, and I still do this, but as we were developing our podcast and really working hard to fine tune the details, I spent a lot of time listening to other podcasts and. And not just church podcasts, you know, preaching podcasts, but just a wide range of popular. Less popular in terms of your own consumption of that material. Are there podcasts out there besides your own, but that. Which is obviously very, very well received and well produced, but are there other podcasts out there that you would encourage folks to listen to as they are developing their own work as an example of something that's high quality and worth. Worth your time?

I think a lot of the NPR shows, you know, they've got like shortwave science podcast and, and some of their new shows there are. I listen to some political podcasts that come from large organizations and seeing their structure. Our idea of having an A, B and C segment, so there's sort of an opening with a short conversation, then we get to the meat of it and then. And then the close. I think it's similar to. Well, when I took a class on preaching from. For my LLM studies, you know, the idea of having that format that sort of encapsulates things and helps people draw attention to certain things. And it also allows people to skip to the meet if they want to and stop. They know when we reach the end and if they're not driving, they might just skip through the rest of it. But so I think that's a lot of it. And the other thing is you listen to enough podcasts and you find out that the people listen to. What is it? Up first from NPR1 Saturday morning. They had taken a track and shifted it about four minutes in the middle of this. And so there was empty space, just silence where an interview was supposed to happen. And then they got to the next piece that introduced the next segment and the interview that was supposed to happen overlapped the second interview in that thing. And so as a producer, you realize I'm not the only one making mistakes.

Right.

These people have, they're on a much shorter timeline. They produce it, you know, at 3:00am and, and have it out by 7. But, but even they make mistakes. And so, so do that. And, and I listen to other podcasts, you know, people we've talked to, you know, we, I subscribe to all the podcasts that we talk to on this show. And occasionally I'll mention, you know, I'll hear something and I'll, I'll be able to say something because I think I've come to realize that if we make mistakes that are correctable, it's less likely that somebody will point it out because they want to be gracious to us.

Right, right.

And I don't want that to happen. So I listen to our show, which is something a lot of people don't do. They don't listen to themselves because it's a lot. But so being able to be that honest feedback to somebody and get in touch with them and say, hey, just to let you know, is kind of a good thing to do, I find. So don't just, you know, sin boldly.

Right, Right on.

That's right.

Especially if that sin is, is making a cut somewhere or leaving an extra in place.

Right, right.

Exactly right. And it'll, you know, the thing of it is the, the error is not trying to just try it and see where it goes. And there's so many folks who have invested time in doing this over, over time that they can help you along now, like I said, YouTube pandemic and YouTube helped me.

Well, this has been great. Thanks so much for joining us here.

Appreciate the invitation. Yeah, grateful for your work too.

Thank you. We'll continue to listen and see what's coming up. Any big topics, anything you're excited about coming up in the future on the show?

Well, I have to think of one.

Well, I would suggest that. I was just looking it up. So if you just happen to have an episode on Sean Copeland's Body Race and being that can work out to about a thousand word essay maybe by. When is that due? April 8th.

Oh, you need that done for you, do you?

Okay, yeah, consider it done.

Pastor Dan's the writer. He just finished his dissertation not too long ago. He's still in the mood.

Yeah, not at all.

Well, congratulations.

Yeah, no, thank you.

Like human manipulated AI.

That's right.

Don't worry, the professors will never spot that.

I know.

Well, it's like you get on Reddit and people ask questions and, you know, it's a term paper they're about to write, so they ask historians or something. Yeah. This is term paper.

Yeah. Thank you so much, gentlemen. Appreciate the time and really and truly is a joy to be with you for the episode and a joy to catch up before we press record as well. Yeah. Blessings.

Yeah. Likewise. Yeah. Thank you.

This is your delightful opportunity. Thank you.

Your story is inspiring for. For me because, you know, I. I can say I. I feel like you guys are so much more polished and directed and intentional than we are. And that's. That's encouraging because. Yeah. I love listening to how. How your show has evolved and, you know, thinking back about our own and. Yeah. So thank you for the time.

And I should note they're shaking their heads in disbelief, so.

And I've said this before, and Ben, you can probably edit this out later because you've heard me say it a million times and it's been on the show a million times. I always say, Ben is the host of Main Street Lutherans. I am only the co host. He does all the hard work. I just show up and, you know, record.

I know the feeling, man.

Sometimes. Yeah. Read some stuff in advance.

Until next time. Yeah, he's going to produce that one all on his own.

Right.

But Pastor Dan is the brains of the operation, and he makes sure I don't do anything heretical in my speech.

We need that.

Yeah, yeah, we don't have one of those. I'm sure we've been heretical more than once.

Sin boldly.

Yeah, you gotta, like Ben said, you

know, stick with it when we meet.

Yeah, we meet Monday, month or weekly on Mondays, whether we're recording or not. And a lot of times we spend that time reading material online. And, you know, and Ben in particular is an incredibly fast reader, and I'm always struggling to keep up with what's going on.

Yeah. I mean, that's the other thing I would say. And you could feel free to edit this out, too. But in terms of relevance, in terms of the value of these kinds of conversations, I really am convicted that we are truly in a season at the moment in which theology and faithful theology is as important as it has ever been. And so the more frequently we can create the time and space to have thoughtful, faithful, reasonable conversations about what it is that God is calling us to, all the better. And I think that that's across the church. I mean.

Agreed.

As folks are considering, you know, developing a podcast that God bless you, that might be a great idea. It'll be a lot of fun, but I want to just lift up the reality that it's also important. I mean, this is. This is critical work and really, really essential in terms of getting some really well grounded voices out into the atmosphere, so to speak.

Yeah, yeah, agreed.

Well, that's not going to get edited out.

Okay.

In fact, that's probably going to be the promo.

That's going to be the trailer. Yeah.

So well done, Dan.

Well, Dan and Wendy, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today.

It's our pleasure.

Really enjoyed it. I really appreciate it. I'm grateful for. For this conversation and for all that you're engaged about. Yeah.

And hopefully we'll catch up eventually. Guys, somewhere within the ins and outs of the church, maybe at the seminary or a regional gathering or something.

I got an ordination coming up somewhere around 2070.

Okay, I'll listen if I can. I'll be there, man. Let me know, Ben.

We could road trip it.

It's only 60 some years away. Something like that. Well, I hope you appreciated that conversation. I certainly did. I learned a lot. This, like I said before, this. This podcast is quite interesting. They have a nice approach to talking about theological topics or praxis, how we practice our religion, our service, that sort of stuff. One of the more recent episodes, at least at the time we're recording, is about why we have the Old Testament. Why didn't we just get rid of it? And so some questions like that that you might think while listening to your pastor, but your pastor won't acknowledge that you're waving your hand to ask a question.

Yeah, it was fun to chat with people. You, you know, have a very similar motivation to you and me.

Started from a different place, but.

Yeah, yeah.

And have gone in a different direction. And it's. And so, you know, we're certainly not in competition since none of us are making any money doing this. But. But it was. Yeah, it was. It was really cool to. To hear people that have, you know, had a similar idea and yet different and gone their own way with it. And how, you know, that enriches all of us just provides more opportunities. I'm really looking forward to promoting the Understanding Church podcast in my congregation because I think that there are people that will benefit from that. And I could answer some of those questions myself. But why, you know, these two really smart, approachable pastors have done this. It's a. It's a great resource that they have been willing to put out not only into their own congregation, but also out into the world for other people to use. So I'm, I'm. So I didn't be able to share it.

And there are several others like that. They're general YouTube ideas. I struggle in calling something on YouTube a podcast, but the newly installed bishop in metro New York does a lot of explaining Lutheranism on a YouTube channel. I'll add a link to that in the episode notes. And I think one of the Senate of North Carolina, I think they have quite a bit of resources on that sort of thing too. But, but I think at the, the congregational level, you get more of the, the ideas that, that happen when you're in, when you're, when you're sitting in the pew listening to these things and you think, well, what did. Because we only usually talk about one of the four texts, if we read all four texts, and, and the other ones have things to think about and, and they don't get addressed. And so this is a sort of a chance to do that.

Well, I guess that's it for today, then. Main Street Lutherans is hosted by Keith Fair and Ben Fot, and the show is produced by Phote Media Productions. You can find all of our contact information, links and a transcript to this episode in the episode notes. Until next time, go in peace. Serve the Lord.

Thanks be to God.