This is Ben and this is Keith,

and this is Main Street Lutherans. We've got an episode to discuss the creeds today. We're talking about the three creeds that Lutheran churches profess and a little bit about where they come from and what they are and aren't for us. But we'd also like to just share a little bit of some updates about things that are coming up, episodes that are forthcoming. So, yeah, you want to tell us about that?

We've had a sort of a slow start to this year, 2026, and part of that is we've had a lot of rearranging of schedules and stuff. And to be fair, Keith and I have taken on a bit more stuff this year than. Than we have in the past. So lots of life getting in the way. But some of the things that we've got coming up. Dr. Tranvik, who spoke about Luther and his troublesome writings, is coming back with us, should be in the next month or so to talk about civic engagement. We will probably try to do an episode on the social statement, either the episode before that one or the one after that so that we're not getting mired into that lengthy document with Dr. Tranvik. I think he wants to talk about the history of social movements within the church and stuff like that. We also have been trying to arrange a meeting with the Church Property Resource Hub. You may have seen this on social media. It's a new resource. The ELCA is providing the details uses of property for congregations. We've been working on a time to talk to them, but I think they've come across more stuff than they expected themselves. So we're having to push that back a little bit. Also, the association for White Lutherans for Racial justice is one of the things we're working on. Again, another group that's getting overloaded with stuff, but we are hoping to talk with them. And of course, that fits in with the civic engagement piece as well. They just had an assembly last month that was really neat and they need a little bit of pr. People need to learn more about that organization. It does some things and some areas of the church are not aware of what's going on there. Also, we're going to bring on another podcast to talk about their podcast. It's called Understanding Church from Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, Bethlehem Lutheran in Glenshaw, Pennsylvania. And so we'll, we'll talk with them about their podcast. So the reason we're bringing this up is that if you have any questions for any of these things, go ahead and send them if you have suggestions on other, other groups. We'd be happy to put them on our list and make some contacts. Just send them to our contact information. Mainstreetlutheransmail.com is a good place to start or any of our social media things. And so, yeah, I believe we're ready to talk about the creeds.

I believe we are as ready as we're going to get.

So we have these creeds in our service. This is one of those things that I would say lifelong Lutherans are familiar with the creeds to some form, even if it was because you were browsing through the LBW when you were a kid. That is, if you were born before probably 1995 or so, if you saw the Athanasian Creed and how many pages it takes up and all that, you may have been interested in those. Our catechisms go over the creeds, but if you're new to the elca, if you've transferred from another denomination, you may not understand why we say a creed every week in our services. And so we'll talk about what those creeds, what they are, how we use them, and maybe some of their history, too.

What do you think? Yeah, I mean, we should probably make a disclaimer that neither of us is a church history or heresy expert, both of which, you know, the creeds have some, some roots in. They are historic documents. The Apostles Creed is the oldest of them and comes from like, as far back as the, the early 200s in its earliest form, and, and then was written over the course of the next couple of hundred years to get into its final form. And now I've, like, you know, tipped my hat and told you pretty much. I know about the history of the creeds. But, you know, so, so they're, they are, you know, they are ancient, ancient documents. And so, you know, I'm not equipped, I won't speak for you, Ben, to speak on, you know, the, the totality of their historical significance. But, yeah, I think it's worth touching on their significance for us in worship today and what they mean. You know, the word creed itself comes from the Latin word credo, which means, I believe. So they are statements of faith. And they, you know, they're foundational for the Christian church and lots of denominations, the Catholic Church, the Lutheran Church, the Orthodox churches, all the mainline Protestants, most evangelical churches will at least kind of name the creeds as something that is foundational for them. So they really are an ecumenical resource and something that unites us together, you know, despite all the things that may, you Know, be different about our various traditions. The creeds are something that we have in common, and so it's worth. It's worth knowing a little bit about. About them.

Yeah. Particularly these three. Right.

Yeah, I remember. You know, I still. Just this past Sunday, I had somebody come up to me after church, and I forget what prompted. Because I mentioned the Creed in my sermon. I mentioned a little bit about the Apostles Creed in my sermon, and. And this gentleman came up, and not in a judgmental way, but more of a nostalgic one. He said, I still think that, you know, before kids come for their First Communion, they should have to memorize the Creed. You know, that they found that meaningful to them. Ben, did you have to memorize the Creed for, like, First Communion or Confirmation?

Oh, we had to memorize the Creed. We had to memorize Luther's explanations from the small catechism, all that stuff. So.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Salvation by memorization used to call that.

Well, I do think the memorization, I think in the service, it comes sort of naturally if you use, say, the Apostles Creed week after week after week, eventually people just memorize it. They're not very long. They have a rhythm and a method, and so I think it just happens naturally. The Nicene Creed takes a little bit more Athanasian Creed. I don't know if anybody ever memorizes that.

Right. Although it was. And you were, as we were researching, you shared this, Ben, that it was in Latin anyway. It was constructed in such a way that it could be sung. Yeah.

It's part of the liturgy. Yeah.

Sort of psalm, like. Yeah, yeah.

And it's actually the newest of them, too.

Yeah. Of those three in English, it does have, you know, a poetic flow to it, repetitive lines, and it's not, you know, unpretty in the way it comes across. It's just that what scares people about it are the first and last lines that basically say, if you do not believe this in your. In its entirety, you are going to go to hell. And. And that's intimidating, you know, understandably. And it's long. Right. So, you know, it gets pulled out on Trinity someday in some traditions, but that's about it. So, you know, let me. Let's say a little bit about

what

the creeds have in common. They are all formulas that are intended to be used in corporate worship or in corporate faith formation, you know, to help teach people about the faith. They all focus heavily on our experience of God in Trinity as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and then, you know, the order of the matters. So the Apostles Creed is the oldest and the shortest, and the Nicene Creed is a little bit longer and a little bit younger. And the Athanasian Creed is the longest and, you know, came along last. And I think that's telling. As, you know, ancient peoples were trying to get more and more of a handle on what the Trinity is and isn't that they continue to go back to the creeds to update and explicate that knowledge, that faith, that experience.

And that isn't part is kind of key, because when we read it, we hear statements, very positive statements. We don't hear what each of those creeds is excluding. And each of the creeds is in a. In a way of omission, declaring certain things to be heresies. Right, right. And heresies are really the basic definition of heresy is that it doesn't comply with the group's agreement of belief.

Right.

And so they're declaring people to be outside of the Christian church from this. And you'll get Gnostics and people who don't believe in. In Jesus's dual divinity and humanity, and that sort of stuff is what gets excluded through that. But because we're making positive statements, it's hard to see what that leaves out.

Right. It's like, I remember one of my professors in seminary say that reading Paul's letters is kind of like playing Jeopardy. You're getting the answers given to you, but then you have to figure out what the questions were. And the creeds are kind of the same way. So we've got the positive response to what we do believe. But you're right. Now we're left kind of parsing through the history of, well, what were they trying to make sure they left out?

Well, and we do know because of church historians, of which we are not. And so we know what those things are, but it's not clear from the creeds themselves that those are the things.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. The person in the pew that's only reading the creed is not going to be exposed to that stuff. And even when we are, I'll speak for myself. It's not always easy to remember. Yeah. So, yeah. So.

So how do the creeds function in our services then?

So, yeah, and I'll go back to the Apostles Creed first, because it's the one that has a couple of particular places. It's the one that's used most of the Sundays of the year, and it's especially used at baptisms. So when we are baptized, the creed is a part for us as Lutherans anyway. It's a Part of the liturgy, the congregation actually recites the Creed as a way of publicly naming, for the sake of the person being baptized or their parents, if it's a baby or a young child, what we believe. Now, presumably this is not the first time that these folks are hearing this, the people that are being baptized. But it's this public, ritualized sharing of what I heard someone describe as the bare minimum of our faith. You know, it doesn't presume anything else, and it doesn't assume that we know all the rest, but it does name this much that we understand that we experience God in the form of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And there's discussion around, you know, those particular words, but the idea of those. Those forms, those relationships, you know, whether you hear that as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, or Creator, Redeemer and Sanctifier, or, you know, other variations on all that. But, yeah, the. The creeds are really the two big things that they're aiming at are, like Varda said, trying to understand and. And describe God as trinitarian, you know, which is not to say that we are polytheists. As Christians. We do not believe in three gods. We believe in one God, but we relate to that God or that God relates to us in three different ways. And then the other thing, especially that the Athanasian Creed dives into, and the others to some extent as well, is that dual nature of Jesus as being fully divine and fully human, which, you know, for ancient peoples, I can understand why it would have taken some time for them to be able to sort all of that out and agree on it and describe it. We use the Apostles Creed at baptisms and most of the Sundays in our congregation at St. Mat's we use the Apostles Creed every Sunday, except for the ones that we don't, which is predominantly festivals, high holy days. We use the Nicene Creed for, oh, the Sundays in Christmas and Easter and on any festivals that come up along the way as well. Transfiguration, Pentecost, particularly Trinity Sunday. Yeah, yeah. And then Trinity Sunday. Some churches will still use the Athanasian Creed. I haven't encountered one of those recently, but the Athanasian Creed, yeah, it's the one that. It's not that our churches no longer claim it, but they recognize that it can be off putting to folks that are not experienced in its wording. So, like our most recent hymnals, the Evangelical Lutheran worship, and this far by Faith, for example, do not have the Athanasian Creed in them. They do have the Nicene and the Apostles Creeds. But the Athanasian Creed is in the Book of Concord and other historical references that we as Lutherans find meaningful. And the Nicene Creed is not too very different in the basic content from the Apostles Creed. It's just has a little bit more explication to it. Both are short enough to pretty easily memorize if you're inclined. Yeah.

And I was thinking about. I don't think Martin Luther only addresses the Apostles Creed in the small Catechism. And I was looking real quick to see if it is in what he uses in the large Catechism. And it looks like just the Apostles Creed there.

I think that is correct. Well, and the connection between the Creed, the Catechism for Luther is that, you know, again, they're the basics of the faith. They were meant to be taught by parents to their children as they grew so that, you know, families could share with next generation the. The basis of our faith creed, the Ten Commandments, the Lord's Prayer, understandings of baptism and communion. So, yeah, that's right there, you know, in Luther's, you know, and Luther was not the only one to create catechism. It was just a common practice at the time. But, yeah, it shows the significance of creeds in our heritage as Lutherans and, you know, beyond that, as in the history of the church.

Yeah. So then the Athanasian Creed is more explanatory as far as relationships between the Trinity. So it doesn't quite follow the same way that the Nicene Creed and the Apostles Creed do. But the Apostles Creed, we'll use that as an example. It starts with a bit about the Father and then about the Son and then the Holy Spirit. And so it follows in that order with some explanation of what those aspects or those as each piece of God is, how we relate to it. Right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It really comes down, I think, you know, creeds are written by humans. Humans are fallible, and our ability to conceive of the divine is pretty much by definition, limited. Right. So the creeds are an attempt to, you know, put some of the best language around that, that we. That we can. And yet it's still going to be imperfect and incomplete, which is why, you know, you've got three of them. They're further. Further attempts to identify that. But yeah, they. They describe God. I think of it, and it's always, you know, risky to. To come out and say, well, this is what I think about it. And then, like, I wonder what heresy I'm naming in doing so.

Right.

But, you know, I think about this as the ways that. That we experience God. We experience God as Father, Creator, we experience God as Son, Savior, Redeemer. We experience God as Holy Spirit as Sanctifier, as, you know, Divine Presence.

And.

And the creeds, you know, help to put a little more. A little more meat on that.

Yeah. So sort of the overall questions, then. If I'm new to the church and I walk in and I see this for the first time, is this something I have to absolutely believe? If I don't believe what I'm saying in the creed, am I sinning?

No. I think that, you know, the creeds are a description of what the Church holds to be important. And so we lift that up in our worship. And I'm not saying that like, you know, that we say things we don't believe all the time. But, you know, I mentioned. I mentioned earlier that I mentioned this in my sermon on Sunday. And what I was talking about at the time was the faith that Abram had when he stepped away from Ur and moved west with his family at God's call for him to go and become a Father of Nations. And, you know, what great faith Abram must have had to do that. And yet, you know, acts of faith often just start one step at a time. And so the creeds, the Apostles Creed in particular, it states that, bare minimum, that if we can't profess it in every waking moment of our lives, we can, in this moment, right now, in worship, together with the support of our siblings in Christ. And when we do that, we're also leaning on the faith of those who came before us. For the case of the Apostles Creed, 1500 years or more of people that have been able to profess this much about God, even if it's, you know, not what they would be able to say all the time. But in this moment, with the support of these siblings in Christ. Yes, I could say that.

Yeah. And it's somewhat aspirational, isn't it, that these are big concepts that we have trouble getting our minds around and that maybe our minds change on how we interpret these things through our lives. I think of the Lord's Prayer or any kind of prayer. You know, when we pray, we're aspiring to something. We say, you know, that, you know, forgive us our trespasses or our sins as we forgive those who sin or trespass against us. I guarantee you that there have been times when I've thought, you know, going through that, I'm like, I'm not forgiving somebody, you know, and so, you know, it's aspirational as a body collected. We pray this together. We declare our faith through the creed. And so, yeah, I think it's aspirational that way. And there are people who absolutely, totally believe every single bit of it. And what I think each person's definition of belief for themselves varies a little bit too.

Right. We should say a little something about the Nicene Creed in particular. It's got a chunk in our history as church that goes back to the separation of the Eastern Rite churches from the Roman Catholic Church, the Western Rite Church. Not to say that this is the reason for that split, but it comes from that time period and it's a part of this, part of the reason that schism exists. And we're going back, you know, more than a thousand years at this point. But it has to do with a particular phrase in the third petition, the one about the Holy Spirit, which in the Creed, as we say it in the Western church and the Lutheran Church, we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified, who is spoken through the prophets. And that phrase, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. The second half of that is the part that the Eastern church does not cling to. And so their version of this creed says, we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father, who with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, who have spoken through the prophets. And, you know, their contention is that that phrase, which in Latin apparently is filioque, I am not a Latin scholar, but I remember that from seminary, the phrase and the Son in Latin is one word, filioque. And that that word was added in later versions of the Creed. And they did not believe that that was appropriate or necessary. And so they did not keep that wording in their tradition. So again, it's not the reason for that split, but it's one of the kind of signifying factors between those two parts of the church. Is that phrase in the Nicene Creed?

Yeah. And then there are other creeds, historically, even earlier than than the Apostles Creed, that like the Didache from, you know, the apostles would have been around maybe when that. When that happened. And so we've got a variety of creeds that are available to different churches, but we have these three that the Lutheran Church globally affirms. And part of how you can decide that is that it's in the Book of Concord, which is our base documents of belief and so you can look at that. We'll have to cover that sometime. I think we'd probably want to pull in a professor from somewhere to talk about the Book of Concord.

Absolutely.

And there are others. There are interdenominational creeds and things. Some folks in some of the. More, I would say, creative denominations, parts of the ucc, parts of. Well, the Unitarian Universalists have a tendency to not treat the creeds always as fixed pieces, and they do some creative things with them. We try to shy away from that. Some pastors have taken liberties with that, but it's generally not accepted among ELCA churches.

Right.

So when we do ecumenical, because the ELCA is an ecumenical church, we believe in working with other denominations. One of the key things that makes us who we are is that we don't believe we have all the answers and that other people have some things that they're doing right, too. And so we work with other folks. And when we do that, some denominations may not completely go with these statements.

Yeah, and that's okay. That shares the diversity and the richness of our different traditions, which I think enriches all of us, rather than, you know, the notion that we all have to agree 100% on everything.

All right, well, that pretty much covers it for us today anyway. There's. There's more depth to it, to the creeds and those things, but hopefully this is a good description for folks who are just getting situated in a Lutheran worship service and wondering why this. This creed is in there between the sermon and the prayers, maybe following a hymn of the day and that.

So, you know, I want to say a little bit something about that, too. I think that. I think there's a reason why the creed is there in that spot in the worship service as well. You know, why don't we say it up front? Like when we have a baptism, why do we kind of keep it in the middle of the service? I think, pastorally speaking, you know, in conversation with parishioners, I would say that, you know, we have heard scripture read and proclaimed in the sermon. We have sung the hymn of the day, and as we're turning the corner from, you know, kind of being nourished in that way to then our response and then. And then further nourishment with. With the bread and wine of Communion, I think the Creed becomes a place for us to share our response to what we've been given in Word. So we have heard Scripture proclaimed, and now is our opportunity to say what we believe in response. And so we recite the Creed and Then we move into the prayers of the people for the day, which is another form of response, but we're not done yet. At that point, we turn back to receiving God again through the bread and wine of communion. So that's why I think the creed is there in the middle of the service and not, you know, at the beginning or at the end.

Yeah. It's not to surprise everybody with, ha, ha. We've declared your forgiveness and you've heard the sermon, and now here's the thing. We're pulling out.

Yes. The old Christian bait and switch. That's right. No.

All right. And it's not a. It's not a fee for taking communion either. It's not. It's not one of our gatekeeping ways. Nobody's watching to see if your lips are moving to see if you should be given a communion card or whatever.

So that's right. Yeah.

Yeah. But with that, hopefully we've not committed too many heresies here, and we'll see when see what happens in our next episode. So going back to the beginning, send your questions for. For our upcoming episodes or suggestions for groups or activities that you want to hear us talk about or people you want us to talk with. And we will get right on that. Also, share the podcast with folks. You can share links. The easiest way I find is on the website. People can find links using their podcast podcast, podcast listening applications from our website. We also have a YouTube channel you can find in the episode notes that you can. We don't have any video. We. You don't want to look at us. Keith's. Keith's forehead's a bit shiny. Mine is, too, actually. And so, so. But. But it's there. And so if you listen to stuff. If you listen to podcasts on YouTube, go ahead and do that. Or you can share it makes it pretty easy. Yeah. So. Well, Main Street Lutherans is hosted by Keith Fair and Ben Fote, and the show is produced by Phote Media Productions. Find all our contact information, links, and a transcript in the episode notes. Until next time, go in peace. Serve the Lord.

Thanks be to God.